FULGRIM and the Feel-Good Boys | Warhammer BOOK CLUB
Discord: https://discord.gg/A7aPwNNynT
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*SPOILERS FOR THE NOVEL:
Fulgrim (Graham McNeill, 2007)
With a heavy heart, do Joshy and Jonny review and discuss the fifth instalment in the hefty saga of the Horus Heresy, Fulgrim. This novel focuses on the titular character, primarch of the 3rd Legion, the Emperor's Children, and their descent into the perverse Chaos corruption of blissful hedonism, away from the light of their namesake.
Yes, we talk about Istvaan, and yes, we talk about the Marivigilia. Get comfortable, this one is a rough tear-jerker.
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TTP Field Manual is brought to you by Joshy and Jonny, best friends and gaming enthusiasts from their local group, Trust the Process Hobbies. Die-hard fans of the Warhammer universe, we use this podcast as a platform to share our passionate (and somewhat humorous) ramblings about all things Grimdark.
By day, Joshy is a therapist; by night, he's an RPG aficionado who grew up on (not-so) Final Fantasies and crafting his own Dungeons & Dragons worlds. Jonny, a technician, spends his downtime conquering more video games than Joshy can keep track of.
Transcript
Oh, boy.
Speaker A:It is the TTP field manual time.
Speaker A:He's back, everybody.
Speaker A:He's back with me.
Speaker A:It's Johnny.
Speaker A:Hello?
Speaker B:Hey.
Speaker B:Hey.
Speaker B:Sorry I've been so busy.
Speaker A:There's only one episode I had to do on my own sim.
Speaker A:It's okay.
Speaker B:New job.
Speaker B:Who dis?
Speaker A:It was a learning experience.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah?
Speaker A:For both of us.
Speaker B:Did you keep stopping to get my input?
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker A:In the middle of the episode.
Speaker A:In the middle of the episode.
Speaker A:At the start, I was like, I got this.
Speaker A:And then the end of the episode, I was back in my group.
Speaker A:But that middle, I was like.
Speaker A:And then this happened.
Speaker A:Ay, crickets.
Speaker A:Crickets.
Speaker A:Crickets.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:The beauty of post processing, right?
Speaker A:Nah, I left it in, mate.
Speaker B:Well, that's awkward.
Speaker A:No, I'm kidding.
Speaker A:How are you?
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:Yeah?
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm doing well.
Speaker B:How are you?
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm always good.
Speaker A:How are you after last night?
Speaker B:A little worn, but we're okay.
Speaker A:What did we do last night?
Speaker B:We played a 2v2 slobber knocker from the depths of hell.
Speaker A:An absolute barn burner.
Speaker B:It sure was.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker A:You got a new toy?
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker B:I picked up Magnus at last for my Thousand Sons project and decided to give him a test out on the table.
Speaker B:How do you think he fared in the grand scheme of a game?
Speaker A:I think he got skull fudged.
Speaker B:He sure did.
Speaker B:There's not a lot that can stop a charging Angron.
Speaker A:That going over the building was a very smart decision.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Didn't see that one coming.
Speaker B:Anyway, I did.
Speaker B:It was in my face.
Speaker A:Oh, well.
Speaker A:Well, you know.
Speaker B:But we still managed to pull off a win because the best thing to do with Aggron is to distract him for the entire game.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Hey, Bron, you want a shiny little sack of meat?
Speaker B:But it does make me excited for the Thousand Sons Codex we did have.
Speaker B:Our opponents were the literal two codexes that just came out this weekend.
Speaker B:So World Eaters and Death Guard, both with their primarchs as well.
Speaker B:So it was a hell of a game.
Speaker B:You know, you were the only one missing your demon Primarch.
Speaker A:Yeah, I played Necrons first time all year.
Speaker A:I didn't have to bring my demigod primarch.
Speaker A:I just brought a literal Shard of God.
Speaker B:Hey, if that's what it takes, right?
Speaker A:And then his whole keywords are just anti vehicle, not anti monster, not anti epic.
Speaker A:So I was just, like, hunting down vehicles while the Primarchs were going for each other.
Speaker B:I mean, you say that, but Morty kind of sat in the corner a little bit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's all right.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We did only do three battle rounds, unfortunately, because multiplayer games are a bit lengthy and everyone was doing new rules.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:New armies, new codexes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But no, it was still good fun.
Speaker B:And it was.
Speaker B:It's always nice to catch up, but I'm pretty keen to get back into crusade next week.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Palate cleanser has.
Speaker A:Has been done.
Speaker A:Now it's time for the crusade to return soon.
Speaker B:Which means Chaos Knights yet again.
Speaker B:And did we end up deciding if we're upping our points?
Speaker A: Yeah, we'll be doing: Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:That's gonna be scary for you.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:This is the part where I bring a second rampager all of a sudden.
Speaker A: I'm not interested in: Speaker B:All the Chaos Knight fans out there being like, what do you mean, second rampager?
Speaker B:Just run more carnivores.
Speaker B:And I'm like, nah, this is more fun.
Speaker B:I like my big stompy robots.
Speaker A:You don't want to do 13 war dog spams.
Speaker B:Ugh.
Speaker B:I can't think of anything worse.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:That sounds boring.
Speaker B:Imagine you've got 13 units and only like three data sheets.
Speaker A:And they all look the same except for their arms.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But nah.
Speaker B:My plan will be to run a bunch of stompy boys and some cultists running around their feet pulling off objectives.
Speaker A:That's fair.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:After playing with iconoclast for a while, though, I feel like it's.
Speaker B:Its strength is in the fact that you get dudes that only cost 50 points.
Speaker B:Like, the actual stratagems are kind of terrible.
Speaker B:They're super situational and don't really accomplish what you want them to do in the moment.
Speaker B:But that's a sacrifice you take for having cultists and the ability to tank shock your opponent.
Speaker A:Yeah, Everything's viable.
Speaker A:You just got to figure out how it works.
Speaker B:Yeah, but enough of the pre Topic topics.
Speaker A:Oh, I love.
Speaker A:I love.
Speaker A:How's your hobby?
Speaker B:It is great.
Speaker B:It is great.
Speaker B:And it's good to just chat, you know?
Speaker B:But it's time for us to do our second Second book club episode.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A:Second book club.
Speaker A:No, no use telling people to read Fulgrim because, well, this is it.
Speaker A:This is the Fulgrim episode.
Speaker A:So likely spoilers.
Speaker A:In fact, it's almost a guarantee there'll be spoilers.
Speaker B:There will be spoilers.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So if you haven't read the book yet, go and read it.
Speaker A:I mean, you also don't have to read it.
Speaker A:You could just listen to us talk about it.
Speaker A:But that's not as immersive.
Speaker B:But at the same time, book good.
Speaker B:Go read it.
Speaker A:Well, kick it away.
Speaker A:How did you like it, Johnny?
Speaker B:I found its pacing a little weird, but I did enjoy the book.
Speaker B:As I just said, it really introduced a lot of characters that are full on in the narrative.
Speaker B:There is a big focus on Fulgrim and how he falls to chaos with a much, honestly, much better show of it than what we got with Horus.
Speaker B:Horace kind of felt like he succeeded in the fight against chaos and then was suddenly a chaos champion.
Speaker B:Whereas Fulgrim, you can really see the corruption and the fall and the way he was tricked into doing things he didn't realistically want to do.
Speaker B:And you even get a few moments where he breaks the fog over his head, sees things clearly before being pulled back, you know, how do you feel.
Speaker A:Like it compared to the previous four HH novels that we've read?
Speaker B:I really liked Eisenstein.
Speaker B:I thought Eisenstein was a very good book.
Speaker B:This book, I feel like it was better written than some of the other ones.
Speaker B:And also, like, so sad, dude.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:This book really pushes the idea that being a human in this world sucks.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I felt really bad for a lot of people in this book.
Speaker B:But to set the stage, Fulgrim is the primarch of the Emperor's Children.
Speaker B:This book overlaps and moves forward in the Istvaan narrative.
Speaker B:And we really get to see Fulgrim's involvement in the betrayal of Horus.
Speaker B:Fulgrim and Horus are very close, and Horus really tries to utilize the strengths and weaknesses of Fulgrim to his advantage and really plays on his ego a lot.
Speaker A:Sure does.
Speaker B:There's also a lot of moments where, like, Fulgrim will recognize that he's playing to his ego but still go along with it.
Speaker B:Fulgrim doesn't seem like the smartest man.
Speaker A:No, he's just the most perfect, which is such a cop out.
Speaker B:Ah, more like the most imperfect.
Speaker A:Well, isn't like his whole shtick that Fulgrim isn't like actually the best at any one thing.
Speaker A:So he decides to exemplify himself in this ideal that he'll never be able to actually reach.
Speaker A:Like the whole perfection of the Emperor's Children was always a bit of.
Speaker A:A.
Speaker A:Bit of a mirage because they're not perfect.
Speaker A:Yeah, tragic tales.
Speaker B:Sure is.
Speaker B:So this book is essentially broken up into five parts.
Speaker B:Five parts.
Speaker B:And we start with the introductions.
Speaker B:We're introduced to a couple of the remembrances.
Speaker B:We've got Serena DeAngelis and Ostian D' Elafor.
Speaker B:We also get introduced to Bekwa Kinska, who is a renowned musician and a very full of herself person who thinks that the world revolves around her.
Speaker B:And we also get to see what the Emperor's children were doing before everything kicks off, which is their campaign against the lair.
Speaker A:The snakes.
Speaker B:I was gonna say.
Speaker B:Do you want to tell the audience what a lair is?
Speaker A:Well, you know, Great Crusade was all about reunification of humanity across the stars.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But naturally across the stars, it's not just humans.
Speaker A:You have aliens.
Speaker A:And to the great crusade, the 5,000 years beforehand, humanity was relatively isolated from itself thanks to a bunch of warp storms and the like.
Speaker A:So you allow a lot of like minor xenos races to flourish a little bit.
Speaker A:And let's say you're like, oh, there's a star system over there, we could go check it.
Speaker A:Oh, look, it's a small upstart alien empire.
Speaker A:Let's crush it.
Speaker A:And the layer is another one of those.
Speaker A:The layer have this sort of mystical, maybe Mayan or Mesoamerican aesthetic to them, but fundamentally they are snake like humanoids, more.
Speaker A:More snake than human, but still upright and with arms.
Speaker A:And with culture and architecture and all of that, I don't think they have any sort of communication with the characters in these novels.
Speaker A:They're just the thing for the Balta porn, as people would call it, the fighting chapters.
Speaker A:Yeah, but there's a dark secret to them.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker B:They kind of give me early day tyranid vibes.
Speaker B:They are like an insectoid snake like creature that with a lot of culture from what you can see, like they're very, very close culture, very communist sort of approach.
Speaker B:Everyone has a role to fill and they will genetically adapt to the role to become the.
Speaker B:The best they can at fulfilling this role in society.
Speaker B:You know, like, it's really interesting and it's something that we.
Speaker B:They're actually a pretty big turning point for the Emperor's children as well.
Speaker B:As we are introduced to one of my favorite Chaos Space Marines, the Apothecary Fabius Bile.
Speaker A:He's not really a guy so much in these books yet, is he?
Speaker A:He's just there.
Speaker B:He's definitely like secondary character energy and they definitely do focus on it a little bit of what he's doing and there's a lot of interactions between him and the main characters, you know, but we get to see a little bit of how Fabius helped the Emperor's children fall to Chaos as he was fascinated by the Lair's ability to genetic.
Speaker B:Genetically manipulate their.
Speaker B:Their bodies to better adapt to their situations.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that starts his study and his manipulation of the Gene Seed as he approaches Fulgrim and seeks permission to experiment on the Gene Seed.
Speaker A:Ma' am.
Speaker A:So I asked you how you felt it compared to previous HH titles.
Speaker A:I'm going to answer my own question real quick.
Speaker B:Yeah, do it.
Speaker A:One thing I really didn't like so much about the early HH books, I mean, and I understand, you know, essentially all the Space Marines, they're like.
Speaker A:They're new babes in the wild.
Speaker A:You know, they don't know about chaos.
Speaker A:They're not the most, like, emotionally mature on account of just being weapons for war.
Speaker A:But there was so much of this, we're Space Marines.
Speaker A:We're the greatest.
Speaker A:You know, that really, like, irked me because it's.
Speaker A:They're just so up themselves, but they're not actually like all that, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah, but in this book.
Speaker A:In this book, it's so much more tragic, right?
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:You know, someone I saw this comment once.
Speaker A:I was basically like, in this book, Fabius is the weird guy you never want to be left alone in a room with at the party.
Speaker A:And, like, you see it when he starts to, like.
Speaker A:Like, who was his first experiment?
Speaker A:Like, the first commander of the whole Legion.
Speaker A:And even he's like, I don't know about this.
Speaker A:He's like, of course it'll be going to be perfect.
Speaker A:It'll be fine.
Speaker A:You'll be perfect.
Speaker A:And I'm just thinking, like, if these Marines had, you know, more time, like a Garvey locan to actually, like, talk to, like, normal people and develop, like, a normal sense of emotional intelligence.
Speaker A:And, like, they could see the writing on the wall, like, some other characters will talk about and just not engage with it.
Speaker A:And so, like, this whole book is just a tragedy.
Speaker A:Like, this is not a book you read to have fun with.
Speaker A:And I just.
Speaker A:Oh, it breaks my heart just seeing all these people that just.
Speaker A:They want to do good, they want to be perfect, but they can't even see just how awful, like, the things lined up for them are because they don't know any better.
Speaker B:Ah, yeah.
Speaker B:They are so naive.
Speaker A:It's such a tragedy.
Speaker A:Even, like, the.
Speaker A:Just the normal humans will talk about it.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Oh, they.
Speaker A:Nobody knows what's going on.
Speaker A:And that's why I'm like, the layers got such a little twist to them.
Speaker A:Like, there's a perverse universal evil to them that no one knows about and they don't really realize it until too late.
Speaker A:Hence the fulgrim slipped on a banana joke I made before.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because this is just a normal.
Speaker A:This is a normal fight.
Speaker A:It's just a normal alien race to go squash under.
Speaker A:But under.
Speaker A:Underfoot.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Like, it's.
Speaker B:It's strange and it's weird to.
Speaker B: ike, this book was written in: Speaker A:Zara.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So with all of the extra knowledge that we have of where things are currently with 40k, it's really frustrating to sit here, be like, it's so obvious you're doing the wrong thing.
Speaker B:Why are you doing this?
Speaker B:Why do you keep second guessing yourself and then not turning away?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have sort of a list here of, at least to me, what felt like some of the bigger sort of scenes in the novel.
Speaker A:And of course there's this book's longer than the other books we've read so far, and it's definitely got this big epic poem vibe to it where every scene is important to either, like a character or, you know, the relationships to other novels and characters.
Speaker A:Like, it's all important.
Speaker A:But I have a few big scenes that I think we could talk about maybe afterwards then we could, you know, say what we think about specific characters, if you'd like.
Speaker B:Yeah, go on, give us the rundown.
Speaker A:So I'm not sure it was like the end of the first act.
Speaker A:Maybe it was the second, but I think it might have been the first.
Speaker A:Which is like the layer have been mostly dealt with.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They are on their home world.
Speaker A:They've quashed the rebellion.
Speaker A:Now it's like, well, what's their home like?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:And they find the layer temple.
Speaker A:It could be any temple, but they just call it the layer temple.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that's.
Speaker B:That's all it is to them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's the.
Speaker B:The final atoll they need to take.
Speaker B:And it happens to be their religious center.
Speaker A:And it's spooky.
Speaker B:It sure is.
Speaker A:Why is it spooky, Johnny?
Speaker B:Because it is a strange anomaly in the world.
Speaker B:It is a giant, like, natural coral sort of vibe.
Speaker B:But there's like, tunnels that resonate and create, like, weird sounds and music as the wind passes through.
Speaker B:There's strange smells, like all of this exotic overpowering scents, and all of this creates an emotional unbalance in whoever is there.
Speaker B:And also there's this weird sword in the middle that fucking Sword.
Speaker A:The biggest point of contention in Fulgrim's narrative for most people is this bloody sword.
Speaker B:Now, unaware to Fulgrim, this sword is possessed by a demon.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:The snakes revere Slaanesh.
Speaker A:Slaanesh.
Speaker B:They sure do.
Speaker B:And you kind of see it in the atmosphere of this temple with its obsessive nature in the way it sounds and smells and tastes in the air.
Speaker B:You know, like, hits all of your different sensory stimulus and just, like, sends you a little psycho.
Speaker B:And we see in the future chapters as the Emperor's children kind of try to recreate those sensations and knowledge and feelings.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So did you enjoy the layer arc?
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I did, actually.
Speaker B:It felt very Space Marine.
Speaker B:They kind of just come in, stomp people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Go up the middle.
Speaker B:And then you get to this, like, moment of kind of turn as Fulgrim grabs the blade and suddenly does not want to let it go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is, you know, you mentioned that there's the demon inside it, and everyone's like.
Speaker A:But, like, primarchs shouldn't be, like, you know, so susceptible to a freaking spooky sword.
Speaker A:But I have to remind audiences here, no one knew, except maybe Lorga, about chaos.
Speaker A:At this stage, nobody realized swords could be spooky.
Speaker A:Everyone just expects it's a material universe.
Speaker A:Atheistic.
Speaker A:No spirituality.
Speaker A:This is just a cool sword.
Speaker A:It's a spooky sword.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Until it's too bloody late.
Speaker B:And frankly, like, it is possessed by a keeper of secrets.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I can't remember if they actively mention that it is a keeper of secrets, but this is a greater demon of Slaanesh in here.
Speaker B:And as we know, greater demons of Slaanesh are very tricky.
Speaker B:So the way that this demon manages to work its way into Fulgrim's brain is by acting as his conscience.
Speaker B:So it will be like, oh, yeah, but.
Speaker B:And it'll be like little whispers in his ear of trying to show him the truth of the situation, even though it's not actually the truth of the situation.
Speaker B:And as you said, no one expects this out of random sword found in cave.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:As you said, it starts as, like, whispers, like, invasive thoughts.
Speaker A:You know, the classic like, oh, I'm really high up.
Speaker A:What if I jumped?
Speaker A:Like, you're not going to.
Speaker A:But that thought, like, goes through your brain like an invasive thought.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's all Fulgrim's having.
Speaker B:But then the more it says and the occasional whisper, and suddenly you're listening a little more than you used to, and before long, you're acting on those impulses.
Speaker A:I like to think of it as not Fulgrim per se, not the keeper of secrets, not the sword, but Fulgrim's reflection.
Speaker A:Because it's not exactly like there is a possession to it.
Speaker A:But until, you know, the very end of the book, when the worst thing possible happens to Fulgrim, it really is just like the dark mirror of his conscience.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I would say overall, Fulgrim probably has a better time of Slaaneshi possession and Slaaneshi corruption compared to like the normal humans that are allowed to visit the world and like record it as like documentarians and artists.
Speaker A:I think they have a much worse time going forward, man.
Speaker B:Getting through the first four books and seeing everything that the Remembrances go through and you're like, how could it possibly get any worse?
Speaker B:And then Fulgrim happens.
Speaker A:Just that this just ship, you know, the ship is full of ship.
Speaker A:It's, you know, I would say the sort of middle ish third.
Speaker A:There's not a whole lot that realistically happens.
Speaker A:It's more of a character study.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But it's a lot of focus on the Remembrances.
Speaker A:And I think it works quite well to sort of tell audience like, you know, if you're a space Marine, you might do some excessive, you know, carnage or hedonism.
Speaker A:Like, you know, with the lens of a space Marine, it's detached from like our day to day reality.
Speaker A:But in this book, the Remembrances are artists.
Speaker A:You have.
Speaker A:Was it Serena?
Speaker A:She's a painter.
Speaker A:Ostian's a sculptor.
Speaker A:Beck was a musician.
Speaker A:And you sort of see how demonic corruption influences them through their art and then plays on their mind and.
Speaker A:Oh, what did you think?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I think that the Emperor's children really showed that like Slaaneshi influence.
Speaker B:It was really good to see such a specific way that this corruption spread throughout the fleet.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And especially on the backs of watching the Chaos Undivided version where it's kind of just like, kill everyone.
Speaker A:We gotta rebel.
Speaker B:Watching them, like fall apart mentally as they try to go one up on themselves and each other is a lot of, I would say fun, but it's not the right word.
Speaker B:Like, it's a lot of fun to read and watch and kind of see how it happens, you know, the.
Speaker B:The sculptor who can never, never call it quits.
Speaker B:It's never quite enough, you know, goes so far as to be like, I'm going to make a sculpture of the Emperor himself, you know, because there's no greater way that I can express my art.
Speaker B:You've got the.
Speaker B:The musician who tries to recreate the sound of pure chaos that she heard within an alien temple because the seduction of it was so much that she feels like everyone should hear it.
Speaker B:You've got the.
Speaker B:The painter who can't quite get the colors right, so goes to more and more extremes to find the right colors, something vibrant enough.
Speaker B:And turns out blood and shit are pretty good for that, man.
Speaker B:And then watching Serena broke my heart.
Speaker B:And then watching all of them spiral worse and worse over the course of the book as nothing is ever quite enough really exemplifies Slaanesh.
Speaker A:You know what I enjoyed a lot about this part of the book is that to Graham McNeil.
Speaker A:Did Graham McNeil write it?
Speaker B:I'm pretty sure it is Graham McNeil.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:He's the guy who did False Gods to his credit.
Speaker A:What I really enjoyed in this middle section because, you know, any book can be space marines fighting, but it's that.
Speaker A:It's that human aspect that always hooks a reader in, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Through the various conflicts, you, you know, Urik brought in to meet characters such as Solomon Demeter, the second captain or the second company captain who spends the majority of the book actually fighting a different element of the Layer Homeworld.
Speaker A:So he never goes to the Layer Temple because he's just off fighting.
Speaker A:You have Ostian Delafor, the sculptor who never goes to the.
Speaker A:The temple as well because he turns down the advances of Beckwackinska because he's more so in love with Serena, the painter.
Speaker A:And so he never ends up going to the temple because Beckwer gets him removed, doesn't let him leave.
Speaker A:Yeah, she gets him off the list.
Speaker A:And so you have both an emperor's children and a human point of view being like, what is going on?
Speaker A:You know, like Solomon's just there, like, oh, I think my friend's an alcoholic now, kind of energy towards his friends because they haven't fully corrupted.
Speaker A:And even Austin, you know, he goes and sees Serena and she's, you know, emancipated.
Speaker A:She's been self harming.
Speaker A:Maybe she's not quite her confident self.
Speaker A:And he's just like, oh, maybe she's just mentally unwell.
Speaker A:But neither of them are actually going through this, you know, corrupted vision of their reality.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's haunting.
Speaker B:It sure is.
Speaker B:It's a blast to see all the different perspectives both from inside the corruption and outside.
Speaker A:I want to take us now to one of my favorite scenes in the whole.
Speaker A:The whole book.
Speaker A:When the Emperor's children are toeing the line of these corruption, right.
Speaker A:They're not.
Speaker A:Not really Slaanesh yet.
Speaker A:They're done with the lair, though, and they're going through this subsystem, which no one really goes into.
Speaker A:I think it was like the Perseus veil, because it's got a lot of, like, anomalies in the region, like some warp stuff, you know, the warp isn't exactly just hell.
Speaker A:It's a reality affecting dimension.
Speaker A:And turns out if you're really good with psychic stuff, you can manipulate that.
Speaker A:Who's really good at manipulating psychic stuff?
Speaker B:The space elves.
Speaker A:The space elves, they find all these garden worlds, gorgeous worlds that are.
Speaker A:No one's there, they're just gorgeous.
Speaker A:And Fulgrim, who's so hedonistic by default, is like, nah, let's not tell the Imperium we've found these.
Speaker A:These are too perfect to, you know, go to waste.
Speaker A:And then ends up meeting King Elf himself, Eldrad Ulthran, who is a very altruistic individual who's like, I am here to warn you guys.
Speaker A:Let's have a chit chat.
Speaker B:Hold on.
Speaker B:We have to touch on the fact that, like, the Eldar are very cautious of the Imperium.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:Yeah, very much attack on site because the Imperium attack on site.
Speaker B:They've never had a positive experience with the Imperium before.
Speaker B:And they're only tempted into this communication because they didn't touch those worlds they didn't try and take straight away, which lured Eldrad into a false sense of security, thinking that maybe he is talking to someone who's a little more normal, passive, or communicable.
Speaker B:And all of Eldrad's companions are like, don't do it.
Speaker B:They're obviously still human.
Speaker B:They will kill us.
Speaker B:And Eldrad's like, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker B:We have to give them a chance.
Speaker B:So he sets up this meeting and then what happens?
Speaker A:Your turn, Jonny.
Speaker A:What happens next?
Speaker B:Fulgrim and his friendly sword that he possesses manage to convince him that Eldrad is not the companion that he wants.
Speaker B:When Eldrad turns to Fulgrim and says, you, brother is going to betray the Emperor and the galaxy will.
Speaker B:I've seen it in my visions.
Speaker B:And Fulgrim's like, nah, no chance, my bros.
Speaker B:He's a good bloke and decides to murder all the Aeldari he can get his hands on, including a Wraith construct.
Speaker A:The Wraith construct.
Speaker A:I as a bit of an Eldar Enthusiast, Very firmly expected Fulgrim to deal with, but then he goes up against something far more powerful.
Speaker A:Once the Aeldari are like, okay, send the big guns.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The Aeldari retreat back through a warp gate and the Emperor's children kind of hang about a little bit, killing and maiming and making sure that they were done with what they had to do.
Speaker B:And in that time, Eldrad goes and gets reinforcements and they end up putting it lightly, sending an avatar of Cain, which is a fragment of their God.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And doesn't do so well because he's there to fight the sword.
Speaker A:Because the sword is Slaaneshi.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They very much realize that the sword is the problem.
Speaker A:And the sword, they're not trying to deal with Fulgrim.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:They're trying to deal with Slumnesh.
Speaker B:They realize that Fulgrim and the Emperor's children are chaos corrupted and they have to stop it from spreading.
Speaker B:So they attempt to destroy the sword and any who prevent them from doing it.
Speaker B:And then fulgrim, just 1v1s an avatar.
Speaker A:But it's not until the sword's like, hey, take my power.
Speaker A:That Fulgrim ends up, like, winning anyway.
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't think he was.
Speaker A:I don't think everyone's like, oh, he killed an avatar of Kane.
Speaker A:But he wasn't doing so well, actually.
Speaker B:He was the vessel.
Speaker B:The sword killed it.
Speaker B:And you definitely see a little bit of this.
Speaker B:This is kind of like the turning point where the sword goes from a quiet voice in his head to offering him something.
Speaker B:This is where the demon in the sword kind of speaks up for the first real time.
Speaker A:The moment where Eldrad's like, oh, you fools.
Speaker A:And, like, leaves.
Speaker A:Bixie's like, you idiots.
Speaker A:Because Eldrad doesn't know.
Speaker A:They don't know, I think.
Speaker A:So he's like, you idiots, what have you done?
Speaker A:And then goes home.
Speaker A:But as Fulgrim is there victorious, he just starts shouting like, oh, slaanesh, slaanesh, slaanesh, slaanesh.
Speaker A:Like in victory.
Speaker A:And then even he's like, hold on.
Speaker A:What does that word even mean?
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:I got chills when he did that.
Speaker A:Like actual, like, goosebumps.
Speaker A:Like, oh, fuck.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:We should mention that at this time, while all of this is going on with Fulgrim, this is also a turning point in Deangelos story.
Speaker B:Poor girl, as it's about this time that she realizes that her blood isn't the right colour and starts finding blood from Other people.
Speaker B:This is her.
Speaker B:Her big turning point when she commits her first murder and she kills a poet called Leopold Cadmus, who was kind of a less renowned and not very good poet, but was easy, easily seduced.
Speaker B:And then as Deangelis invited him in, she managed to murder him mid coitus.
Speaker A:Stab him with a brush, I believe.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:At the same time that she also, you know, had her moment of climax.
Speaker A:Yeah, I enjoyed that.
Speaker A:She didn't do it just once either.
Speaker A:But then Ostyan, her estranged lover of old, it's just like, Ma' am, I think the Emperor's children are going around silencing the remembrances.
Speaker A:Nope.
Speaker A:No, that's not what's happening.
Speaker B:It's not the Emperor's children doing it.
Speaker B:He does attempt to approach Deangelis about her state.
Speaker B:And in a moment of clarity, she pushes him away, basically begging him not to come into her room because she.
Speaker B:He would see what she has been doing and she would be forced to kill him.
Speaker B:So she begs him to leave and not come back.
Speaker B:So there is a little bit of these moments of, like, clarity and recognition of what they're doing, both in the remembrances and the Emperor's children themselves.
Speaker B:But, yeah, this is kind of like the mid part of the book and a big turning point in the possession of Slaanesh over the entire fleet and seeing just how much power they can gain out of the sword.
Speaker B:Enough to take down an avatar of the God of War for the Aeldari.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But then we have a little bit of a pause on the ship and focus on both.
Speaker A:Fulgrim going to check in on Horus and see for realsies what's going on.
Speaker A:And then afterwards, him going to go check on his bestie, Ferris.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Did you enjoy these two parts of the book?
Speaker B:Oh, damn.
Speaker B:So Horus gives Ferris, gives Fulgrim a very big job.
Speaker B:Turn Ferrus Manus to our cause.
Speaker B:We cannot fight if the Iron warriors are against us or Iron Hands.
Speaker B:Sorry, wrong.
Speaker B:Wrong chapter.
Speaker B:So Fulgrim is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's my bro.
Speaker B:He'll.
Speaker B:I can turn him over.
Speaker B:We'll get him on our side.
Speaker A:And then he's like, fat effing chance.
Speaker B:And then goes and has a little talk with Ferrus Manus.
Speaker B:Ferrus Manus turns to him and says, you're a fucking nutcase.
Speaker B:What the hell do you think you're doing?
Speaker B:Dad would be so mad.
Speaker A:Yeah, something like, you spent all this bloody time trying to get his favor and now you're gonna Throw it away.
Speaker A:Because what, Horace gave you some attention instead.
Speaker B:And it very much is like, you can see that these two have a lot of respect for each other, but also that Ferris tries to be the voice of reason for Fulgrim.
Speaker B:And it might have worked if it wasn't for the sword.
Speaker B:If he wasn't already so far gone, Fulgrim would not have turned.
Speaker B:No, but unfortunately Fulgrim was not thinking clearly as this.
Speaker A:The reflection said otherwise.
Speaker B:At this point, it was no longer just the voice, it was the reflection.
Speaker B:It was a big part of his decision making process.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a lot of like, he thinks he's better than you.
Speaker A:He thinks you'll never amount to anything.
Speaker A:Why don't you show him that you're perfection?
Speaker A:You know, a lot of those, like not nothing too far fetched from Fulgrim's own train of thought, but nothing he would indulge until now.
Speaker B:This obviously angers Fulgrim to the point where he 1v1s Ferrus Manus, his closest brother, and takes the warhammer that he made for Ferris and caves his skull in.
Speaker B:In a very big moment in the books.
Speaker B:And I under exaggerate just how big this confrontation is in Fulgrim's narrative.
Speaker B:This is the moment that truly breaks Fulgrim.
Speaker B:And this moment resonates in Fulgrim's mind, all for 10,000 years.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, this is, this is the.
Speaker B:True decline of Fulgrim into the state he ends up in.
Speaker B:And in future novels, Fulgrim even tasks Fabius to clone Ferrus Manus multiple times in an attempt to change his mind and succeed in turning Ferros so he doesn't have to kill him.
Speaker B:Only for every single Ferrus clone to come to a very quick end because they refuse to turn.
Speaker A:Yeah, a lot of people would think, you know, Ferrus Manus doesn't get a lot of representation in the lore.
Speaker A:He can't be that important.
Speaker A:But he is one of the 18 primarchs.
Speaker A:You know, he's just as relevant as any of the others.
Speaker B:But he just unfortunately came to a fast end.
Speaker A:Yeah, he hit his head.
Speaker A:But these two were besties.
Speaker A:Despite the pompous nature of Fulgrim and the hot headed nature of Ferrus, they had a fantastic kinship.
Speaker B:They were as close as two primarchs can be.
Speaker A:And spoilers.
Speaker A:Yes, Fulgrim does eventually finish him off at the end of the book, but it's that action that he can't rationalize that darker reflection out of.
Speaker A:And he just essentially has ego death for however long.
Speaker A:And the reflection hops in and takes full control.
Speaker A:Because he could doom his legion.
Speaker A:He could murder a Remembrancer.
Speaker A:He could betray the Emperor, but kill his favorite brother.
Speaker A:That's too far.
Speaker A:But the sword doesn't care.
Speaker B:The sword does not care.
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B:The Emperor's children open fire on the Iron Hands ship and staff.
Speaker B:Many die.
Speaker B:Ferrus Manus at this point lives.
Speaker B:He has had his skull caved in and is not looking too crash hot.
Speaker B:But he is left alive by Fulgrim.
Speaker B:Fulgrim then leaves with his hammer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In the middle of this fight, the sword that Ferrus Manus made for Fulgrim is melted down by the silvery hands of Ferrus Manus.
Speaker B:He's in a big I made it so I will unmake it moment, which is also a good way of them showing that this brotherhood has ended as they take back the weapons they made for each other.
Speaker A:And it obviously weighs super heavily on Fulgrim because.
Speaker A:And I don't have so much time left to talk.
Speaker A:But leading up to the next big scene, you have other characters interacting with Fulgrim, but he's essentially, like, doping constantly with various things.
Speaker A:He's listening to, like, four or five songs at once on loudspeaker.
Speaker A:He's basically walking around in the nude.
Speaker A:He's looking at paintings that make no sense.
Speaker A:He's commissioning remembrances to convert the dance hall and paint images of him that are a little effed up.
Speaker A:He is like, isn't everything glorious?
Speaker A:But he hasn't eaten a meal in four days and hasn't slept in five, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:He's lost the plot.
Speaker B:He is spiraling deep.
Speaker B:And we come to, like, the final part of the book, the most infamous.
Speaker A:Part of the book.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:There is two big events that happen at this point in the book.
Speaker B:One focused around the Remembrances and one focused around Fulgrim and the Emperor's children.
Speaker A:Which one you want to do?
Speaker B:Let's start with the battle for Istvaan 5.
Speaker B:So Istvaan 3 has happened.
Speaker B:The virus bombs and the murdering of the loyalists within their ranks is done.
Speaker B:Word has got back to the Emperor and a few of the brothers, mainly the Iron Hand Salamanders and Raven Guard team up to come and deal with the traitors on Istvaan 5.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:They have also got the Iron warriors, the Night Lords, the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion coming as backup.
Speaker A:Great guys.
Speaker B:But do not wait before advancing because Ferrus Manus is kind of blood fury at Fulgrim and wants his revenge.
Speaker B:So the strength of seven legions coming down on the four traitor legions.
Speaker B:They see themselves as out gunning them and start the assault.
Speaker B:The loyalists are doing very well.
Speaker B:They are fighting their way through the traitors ranks, pushing them back, but taking heavy, heavy casualties in the process.
Speaker B:The fight duel between Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim begins fresh.
Speaker B:Ferris has reforged the sword he made for Fulgrim and wants to use it to kill Fulgrim.
Speaker B:Fulgrim has carried the hammer this whole time in the hope of using it to kill Ferris.
Speaker B:There is now this like blood fury between the two of them where there used to be love.
Speaker B:They get into a pretty, pretty big duel in the middle of this war and everyone kind of stands back and watches a little bit.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're watching.
Speaker A:Primordial forces clash.
Speaker B:They go fucking crazy at each other.
Speaker B:In the end, Fulgrim manages to succeed by cutting off the head of Ferrus Manus.
Speaker A:He actually stops, right?
Speaker A:He holds his hand, freezes for a moment.
Speaker A:Something.
Speaker A:Something's like, nah, do it.
Speaker B:Yeah, do it.
Speaker B:He freezes for a moment as he kind of realizes what is happening before the grip is strengthened from the sword and it forces him to follow through.
Speaker A:Do it, Anakin.
Speaker B:And that is.
Speaker B:That is the final moment for Fulgrim to break.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:The loyalists begin to retreat back to the drop site as the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, word bearers and Alpha Legion arrive to reinforce them.
Speaker B:And they're like, okay, let's back up and let ourselves heal up a little bit because we've taken heavy losses and let the new guys that are coming in get some glory.
Speaker B:Only for these four legions to reveal themselves as traitors and gun down the loyalist chapters from behind.
Speaker A:It was a trap.
Speaker A:Always was.
Speaker B:This is forever known as the drop site massacre and is the true turning point in the establishing of which legions are turning traitors.
Speaker B:Mm.
Speaker A:There's some pretty intense little moments that I remember.
Speaker A:There are a couple of, you know, the Emperor's children that have gone super corrupted doing their unhinged bullcrap across the battlefield.
Speaker A:But I remember very vividly just hearing like, oh, you know, you know, they glanced across the battlefield and saw Mortarion advancing with his death guard.
Speaker A:You know, the DS IRAY was going big boom ba.
Speaker A:But then I remember when Ferris is like, fulgrim, you idiot, you've lost.
Speaker A:Look, there's four more legions.
Speaker A:And Fulgrim's like, look again.
Speaker A:And Ferrus's jaw drops for a second.
Speaker B:Time as he watches his allies be gunned down.
Speaker B:It's a brutal fight and a brutal moment for being Ferrus Manus.
Speaker B:Hot damn.
Speaker B:To realize that all hope is lost in that moment and that the traitors have managed to get this far.
Speaker A:Yeah, like he can't even get on the vox with Corax of the Raven Guard or Vulcan of the Salamanders because they've been jammed.
Speaker A:Like he knows whereabouts they are.
Speaker A:Like he sees the nuclear warhead over at where Vulcan's position is just go off.
Speaker A:He's like, oh, cool, he's dead.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:What hope do I have?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's rough.
Speaker B:It is rough.
Speaker B:And while this is all going on, or immediately afterwards, we end up with the maraviglia.
Speaker A:That's before.
Speaker B:Before.
Speaker B:Before.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Between three and five.
Speaker B:It sure is.
Speaker B:You can take the reins on the maraviglia.
Speaker A:I still am not entirely sure how it's pronounced.
Speaker A:Maravilla.
Speaker B:Oh, who?
Speaker A:Maybe.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't think it matters.
Speaker A:I think it's a layer word that finds its way into Bekukinska's.
Speaker A:Anyway.
Speaker A:This, the maraviglia, is Bekuwekinska's magnum opus.
Speaker A:Concert.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:She's been tinkering away, making brand new instruments, training dancers and singers to do crazy moves and tones of voice.
Speaker A:You have Serena d' Angelos commissioned to paint the roof of the concert hall, which was like the speakeasy bar for the remembrances for the longest time, and it just turned into this grand theater by a couple of these remembrances.
Speaker A:After Serena's done, she realizes how far she's fallen, only to go and look for Ostjan to have that emotional comfort.
Speaker A:Except.
Speaker A:Oh, what's that?
Speaker A:Fulgrim had impaled Ostjan in the previous chapter on his statue of the Emperor.
Speaker A:Crazy.
Speaker B:And notably on the silver sword of the Lair.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she's just so heartbroken as she has that lapse from her psychosis and realizes everything and then hops herself onto the sword, embracing her once.
Speaker A:Love.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:But then the actual performance nonetheless takes place and Fulgrim's there.
Speaker A:His captains, Julius Caesaron of the first and Marius.
Speaker B:Marius Varosian.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:Sorry, Varotion.
Speaker A:Few others are all in attendance.
Speaker A:And it starts with just this unwieldy symphony of song like the Layer Temple that, as you said, stirs all the emotions.
Speaker A:Several of the captains and other emperor's children are like, I.
Speaker A:I don't know how to feel about this.
Speaker A:And Fulgrim's just full on relishing several of the remembrances who again, weren't at the temple, like, nah, this is F day.
Speaker A:And try and leave only for other members of the crowd to be like, lured into this aggression and just curb stomp them to death.
Speaker A:And this whole symphony just devolves rapidly into bloodbath hedonistic excess.
Speaker A:Emperors, children and humans alike are just, you know, effing and killing and just absolutely hooked on the music until at its crescendo, the performers, including Bekwakinska herself, are torn apart by immaterial rifts.
Speaker A:And from their flesh, if they weren't possessed, they get ripped apart and become a new just slaanesh Demonettes and.
Speaker A:Oh, haunting, haunting stuff, isn't it?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And there's this brutal vision of Kinska's body possessed by a demonet.
Speaker B:She is completely dead, but her body is still performing this ungodly music.
Speaker A:Do you think.
Speaker A:Do you think she's the infernal and rapturous?
Speaker B:I mean, she definitely is now, right?
Speaker B:The Demonettes go crazy running through the audience, massacring everyone.
Speaker A:I had a thought when listening to this.
Speaker A:It was late at night, so of course your thoughts are a bit more nebulous when you're tired.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And just listening to this, I really felt, you know, previously, when I read these Warhammer books, Jonny, they're like, oh, there's the demon.
Speaker A:It's a primordial force of hatred that's Scarbrand.
Speaker A:You know, like it's.
Speaker A:They give a personification to the demons, but there isn't any humanity in these demonets.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They're not even like a creature.
Speaker A:It feels like.
Speaker A:It feels like they're just a physical manifestation of energy just there to encapsulate what is going on rather than to actually like murder people or F them or anything like that.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's just nature, like a storm or an earthquake.
Speaker A:It's eerie.
Speaker A:It's probably the most eerie depiction of demons I've read in a book so far.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, it really.
Speaker B:They really play on the fact that demons are emotion made manifest and they just.
Speaker B:They just murder for the sake of murder.
Speaker B:Like, it's just.
Speaker B:Yeah, as you said, completely animalistic.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And on the top of that, you know, these books always just have marines, right, that are just there.
Speaker A:And you might have a chapter that's theirs.
Speaker A:You might have a moment that's theirs, but they're not always so well explored, but for this moment was.
Speaker A:I really feel like, despite, you know, the actual concert of it, I really feel like this was both Julius and Marius moment.
Speaker B:Right, Yes.
Speaker B:I was about to get to that, so I'm glad you mentioned it.
Speaker A:Mm.
Speaker A:You wanna go on it?
Speaker A:Then?
Speaker B:As the music starts to die down, all of the musicians have been murdered.
Speaker B:Murdered, maimed, and all sorts of other things erupted.
Speaker B:There's a moment of calm as the music comes to a stop.
Speaker B:And it's at this moment that the genetically enhanced by our friend the apothecary Fabius Bile, have this moment of realization.
Speaker B:And the song is born in their.
Speaker B:Born and seared into their brains.
Speaker B:And they pick up the fallen instruments and continue the music as it is to fuel the summoning of the Demonettes.
Speaker B:And we get the birth of the Noise Marines.
Speaker A:Yeah, they press a button, and it's not just noise.
Speaker A:It's exploding sonic waves.
Speaker B:Sonic waves.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That's the big moment of creation for these Noise Marines as well.
Speaker A:Mr.
Speaker A:Marius is the guy who says the silence offends Slaanesh.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know if he says it in this book, but he says it eventually.
Speaker B:He says it eventually.
Speaker A:Like this.
Speaker A:This silence offends Slaanesh.
Speaker A:Like, he gets jaw surgery by the time of the Isfan5 drop site thing, and his mouth is just permanently opened.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:His eyes are stapled wide so he can take in everything.
Speaker A:And even Julius, who was a lot more on the fence, I would say, despite being there through everything, like the whole Iron Hands thing, the Istvaan planning, the temple, he was always there, but he was almost afraid to let himself go.
Speaker A:But by the time of the ISVAN 5 massacre, he's like, you know what I love?
Speaker A:I love drowning my armor in blood and viscera and skull effing my old mates.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker A:You know what I love hedonism.
Speaker A:And he becomes the.
Speaker A:The preferred son of Fulgrim going forward because dude is quite unhinged.
Speaker A:Not so much unhinged like Marius's jaw.
Speaker B:But, you know, and spoiler alert, eventually becomes a demon prince.
Speaker A:Whoops.
Speaker A:Spoilers.
Speaker A:I want to ask you a question now, my mate.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:What did you not like of the book?
Speaker B:If anything, the pacing in the first half of the book was a little hard to get into.
Speaker B:I struggled with the opening chapters to invest into what was happening, but I feel like the second half of the book made up for it.
Speaker A:I agree.
Speaker B:It kind of felt like there was a lot of setup at the Start.
Speaker B:While we did talk very positively about the Lair campaign, it felt very basic.
Speaker B:Space Marine sure did.
Speaker B:The first thing I thought when I was reading the first couple of chapters and they're introducing characters is everyone is so artsy, egotistic.
Speaker B:And I didn't really mesh with any of the remembrances at first.
Speaker B:They all just kind of felt a little alien to me.
Speaker B:No one felt like good people, you know, there was no good person at first.
Speaker B:But as people started to fall to chaos and things started to progress in the greater narrative, I just got sucked in.
Speaker B:I feel like I read the second half of this book in a fraction of the time it took me to get through the first half.
Speaker B:And then I guess to round it out, we have to talk about the final scene.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The reflection cracked.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Name of a novella.
Speaker B:Anyway, it jumps to Horus very, very suddenly.
Speaker B:It's like, okay, time has passed.
Speaker B:Here's Horus.
Speaker B:And Fulgrim walks in and drops the head of Ferrus Manus in front of him.
Speaker B:And Horus is kind of just like, but why?
Speaker A:That's gross.
Speaker B:Like, why that was unnecessary.
Speaker B:And Fulgrim admits to Horus that he is no longer Fulgrim.
Speaker B:The demon that was possessing the sword has taken control of his body.
Speaker B:And Fulgrim is locked in his own head in the back corners of his conscience of his consciousness.
Speaker B:And this demon essentially says, I will support what you were doing.
Speaker B:And Horus is like, but why?
Speaker B:Because Horus is still a little iffy of chaos and doesn't really trust what's happening.
Speaker B:He wants to try and abuse the powers of the Chaos Gods without actually.
Speaker A:Horus just wants a good scrap.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And Horus makes this secret vow that he will use the demon if needed, but will eventually free his brother.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:So charitable of him.
Speaker B:Whether that be through death or savior.
Speaker A:So kind of Horus to save his brother after the fact.
Speaker B:After he gets what he wants.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:What a.
Speaker A:See you in the nt.
Speaker B:What a dick move.
Speaker A:I'm going to have to take us into closing remarks, my friend.
Speaker B:We will have to go into closing remarks as that is the end of the book.
Speaker A:I was wanting to maybe talk a bit more about the characters specifically, but we kind of covered mostly, yeah.
Speaker A:Our opinions on them.
Speaker A:So, in general, mate, what do you want to do?
Speaker A:Closing remarks wise.
Speaker A:What's your sort of TL Dr.
Speaker A:Review?
Speaker B:The book is good.
Speaker B:I really liked that they showed just how much Fulgrim changed and warped and kind of showed that sneaky invasion of his conscience.
Speaker B:I actually really liked that.
Speaker B:And I wish we saw it more with Horus.
Speaker B:You could see the struggle.
Speaker B:You could see the fight.
Speaker B:You could see Fulgrim trying to break out of it.
Speaker B:There's moments where he's, like, not attached to the sword and gets a moment of clarity, and then this thing ticks in his head and he's like, oh, but I need to go get my sword first.
Speaker B:You know, like, there's this draw and this pull and this push.
Speaker B:And I really liked seeing Fulgrim completely not in control of his own fall.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's good.
Speaker A:Good stuff.
Speaker B:Other than that, the human aspect was both completely disgusting and kind of interesting to see.
Speaker B:Between the Satanistic approach to their art and the grand finale of the maraviglia, which fun fact is an Italian word for wonder, marvel, or amazement.
Speaker A:Well, how about that again?
Speaker A:What Learned.
Speaker B:But, yeah, no, it was very good to see.
Speaker B:And in all the books, it's been very interesting to see that human touch and that human side of what's happening as they crusade through the stars with these traitor Marines, unaware of exactly what's happening until it's, well, too late and out of their control.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker B:How did you feel?
Speaker B:As a closing remark with this book.
Speaker A:I actually echo a lot of your opinions, so I won't say them again.
Speaker A:In addition to what you've said, though, I actually, surprisingly, really liked what we saw of Ferris and a couple of the other smaller interactions, like the whole Horace Fulgrim chats.
Speaker A:We talked about it a bit, but I really liked it.
Speaker A:My favorite thing overall was just like the perverse horror of Slaanesh Khorne.
Speaker A:Easy to understand, Nurgle, easy to understand.
Speaker A:Tzeentch.
Speaker A:Less easy to understand, but you get the gist.
Speaker A:Slaanesh is just outright horrifying, and this book did a fantastic job of displaying that through various means.
Speaker A:Even, like, seeing how scared it made the Aeldari.
Speaker A:Probably the thing I didn't like the most is just a personal thing, which is.
Speaker A:I just really feel sad reading this book.
Speaker A:Like, this book is nothing but tragedy.
Speaker A:There's no good feeling thing unless you're a bit twisted yourself.
Speaker A:But, you know, if you.
Speaker A:If you can root for the bad guys a little bit, you might enjoy this for that aspect.
Speaker A:It happens.
Speaker A:You know, everyone likes a good villain.
Speaker A:Oh, just like the whole.
Speaker A:The ISFAN 3, the.
Speaker A:The remembrance.
Speaker A:It's just sad.
Speaker A:I don't think I'll read this book again.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I do agree.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, it's.
Speaker B:Going through it again would be rough.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Well, I think that's all.
Speaker B:But I do have one last question.
Speaker B:More out of fun to poke at you than anything, but after reading this book, how do you feel about Lucius?
Speaker A:All right, so that's been the end of our book club today.
Speaker A:Nah, Lucius is a really compelling character.
Speaker B:I just know how you feel about him.
Speaker A:He's a downright cunt.
Speaker A:He's one of the best written, like guys you never want to root for, but you can't help but be a little bit giddy when his plan works in his favor.
Speaker A:Like, haha, you go, you snide son of a gun.
Speaker B:The betrayal, him killing Solomon, which we didn't even touch on this episode, but the betrayal of the loyalists just because.
Speaker A:He was too much of an egotistical, vainglorious fellow.
Speaker A:We'll do.
Speaker A:Tell you what, we'll do a Lucius episode one day.
Speaker A:How about that?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:I look forward to it.
Speaker A:And then we will talk about Solomon.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:Because I really enjoyed Solomon and I would like to talk about him.
Speaker A:But yeah, not a day.
Speaker B:Or maybe we do an episode on the good guys of the traitors and we can touch on a little bit of Solomon.
Speaker A:And that's a good idea because there's.
Speaker B:One in every traitor legion, right?
Speaker A:The brotherhood of the good boys.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Sweet.
Speaker A:Cool, cool.
Speaker A:End of the episode.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:Read Angel Exterminatus.
Speaker A:That's our next book.
Speaker A:It's Horus Heresy once more, but it's a somewhat sequel to this one.
Speaker A:Anyway, Jonny, send us home.
Speaker B:Enjoy your hobbies, have a lovely time.
Speaker B:I hope you all enjoyed listening.
Speaker B:And we do have an Instagram go follow.
Speaker B:The more we get on, the more people that are on there, the more likely we are to post.
Speaker B:I will be in the very near future uploading some imagery, I guess, from our most recent game, which was a Battle of the Primarch Necrons.
Speaker B:Just as like a little bit of life stuff that we do, you know, and maybe we could try and be a little bit more active on there with what we are actively doing with our hobbying and stuff like that, and putting pictures and letting you guys follow along.
Speaker A:Cool, man.
Speaker A:Thanks, man.
Speaker A:All right, pleasure to do this again with you, man.
Speaker B:Till next time.
Speaker A:Till next time.
Speaker A:Thanks.
